Special Interview: Ian MacKaye on DIY, All-Ages Shows in Boston

By Meredith Turits

The man who grew up poineering grassroots music business with Dishord Records, Minor Threat and Fugazi speaks with Performer about his past with Boston promoters and the need for more all-age shows.

Performer: Tell me about your past experience with rock clubs when DIY culture was sort of being pioneered - when you were sweeping through with Minor Threat and Fugazi.

MacKaye: In the beginning, there were no shows. It wasn’t a matter of, like, “Well, we can play in the rock club or not.” We couldn’t play in the rock club. If you were going to do it, you had to do it yourself, period. Especially in Washington, D.C. at that time, there was no functioning underground punk scene to speak of. We were kids and we started to play and we just played garages, basements. And it so happened that a burgeoning underground punk scene that started to develop that centered on underground art galleries and kind of radical political kind of places.

Performer: What was your experience in getting shows around Boston?

MacKaye: Boston was one of the most difficult towns to play an all-ages show, even a reasonable show for Fugazi. We played shows that were usually five bucks all-ages. And in the early ‘90s, almost every rock venue in Boston was largely controlled by one promoter, and that promoter had their system. The way Fugazi approached our dealings with rock clubs was that we’d never worked on guarantees — we worked on percentages. Our point of view was “The price of the ticket is fixed, therefore, the venue and the band have to work together to bring down the costs.” So for instance, we didn’t use a light show, need loaders, ask for hotels, etc. So there are all these kind of costs that most bands would incur but were not an issue for us. We would break it down, that’s how we would make it work.

Performer: Were you able to compromise?

MacKaye: The promoter in Boston was not willing to break down the costs, because they were not interested in setting a precedent or having a precedent set with a band for a low-ticket price. From their point of view, it wasn’t worth it. It was deeply discouraging for us that for over 10 years, Fugazi was not able to play in Boston proper. It was a monopoly.

Performer: So what did you guys do?

MacKaye: We played in Worcester; we played a gym in Clinton. We played a hockey rink in Lowell, etc. It really wasn’t until MassArt said “We can do this” that we were able to play in the city. It took us 10 years. It was very frustrating because of all the cities in the country, Boston was crammed full of people who were obviously Fugazi fans. And I thought it was nuts, but these dudes were playing hardball. And then also what happened was, despite even their own nefarious business practices and stubbornness, they ended up selling out to this company that is basically now Live Nation.

Performer: It’s interesting because Boston is still like that in some respects. There are still few all-ages shows.

MacKaye: Right. It’s completely insane. The fact that shows are not all ages is the absolute indication of the toxic agreement and arrangement between the alcohol industry and the music industry. How is it possible that people who are under the age of 21 are not permitted to see music? I mean, does music mean anything to people who are under 21? I would argue that for kids who are 17 or 18, music is way more important than to people who are 25 or 30 or 35. It just shows you the sickness that this society has allowed itself to be, to have something as sacred as music to be, essentially, like the panda bear at the zoo, the thing that brings the crowd in. Kids should do everything in their power just to tell that industry to fuck off.

Performer: Do you think there’s a way to establish a middle ground or a way to establish collaboration between clubs and DIY bands, or is it better for DIY bands to stay separate to preserve the ethic?

MacKaye: There are plenty of rock clubs, depending on the local laws, that have found that there is a way to do all-ages shows. And I think those clubs should be supported, those clubs should be celebrated because they actually think that the music is sacred. And though they have a business and they are in the business of selling that, they don’t feel like that business should dictate who gets to see the music. I don’t know why something as beautiful and sacred as music has become part in parcel of this elite, self-destructive, nihilistic kind of idea. The thing about why music has been entwined with alcohol is largely the result of concentrated, perpetual reinforcement of that idea by the industry to sell alcohol. You know, it’s like Gatorade and sports. Or, for that matter, nationalism and sports. Did it ever occur to you like, why on earth do they sing the national anthem at every sporting event? What does that have to do with nationalism? It’s just brand reinforcement. Sex, drugs, & rock n’ roll.

Performer: But do you think though that looking at it as branding, or looking at, sort of the DIY versus the brand management, does that foster an us-against-them kind of mentality?

MacKaye: I don’t think so. I think the idea, at least in my mind, DIY is just the right for music to be music and played for music’s sake. It’s the idea that the music you make is not being dictated by profit.